Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

In the report they said they believed the rounds "ricocheted" off the ground and hit them, so, not a direct-energy imparting impact. Still, that was pretty amazing that the kid was shot right in the chest and was not dead, or screaming his head-off. His lungs almost collapsed, so that might have kept the screaming down.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

military rounds in intermidiate cartridges are meant to wound, not instantly kill. Thats about all I can offer in that regard.

The 5.56 and 7.62 have killed plenty of people through out their history...and wounded a great many more. The 5.45 is the same.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

The U.S. Military uses ball ammo because of legal reasons.
You are not limited by those factors.
.223 works just fine with hollowpoints... get some! :biggrin:

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

So many factors involved, but for my money, if they absolutely, positively must be put DOWN, I'll stick with .308.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

EOL makes a good point! ;)

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

Shot placement is key. No vital organs struck means your opponent lives to fight another day.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

It is nice to have a gun that shoots the same bullets other people are using. Cuts down on the reloading costs too :wink:

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

Here is what I noticed in that clip.

Kid was hit in the upper right side of the chest, later it showed him from the rear and it looked like the exit wound was just below his left shoulder.

We saw this in Nam way to often. Sometimes it would take 5 to 7 rounds to stop a 135 pound VC.

Not looking to start a AR v AK debate, as that has been hashed out here at GIM over and over already.

We always picked up a loose AK and the ammo whenever we could.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

5.56 ball ammo was designed to wound.

Logistically, it requires more personnel, and thus more resources, to deal with a wounded soldier as opposed to a dead soldier. War is engineered to be hell!

Heavy grain HP .223 kills more effectively.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

I have defense ammo for my ar15, heavy weight and hp I believe. For ak I have bear ammo which is very minor hp. and for the fal I use ball.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

Was it M855 out of a 14.5" barrel(probably was)? M855 has very poor terminal ballistics out of a short barrel, it will only fragment out to a max of 75 yards. Out of a 16"(or better yet 20") barrel, that range is extended as far as 200 yards. Soft nose or HP/OTM bullets will provide much better terminal performance at longer distances than M193 or M855.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

I disagree.

For general anti-personal use, I would pick M193 over any kind of HP.

I have done some work with the Sierra 77 grain Match bullet and it does work. As the guys with the Designated Marksman rifles have found.

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/

Gregg

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

I will agree with that since you included the phrase "at longer distances." If you are using standard length barrels, M193 will work better than anything else out to 150 meters or so. After that it will benefit from a longer barrel. If you are planning on long range engagements with an AR, I would _assume_ you aren't going to do it with a 14-16" barrel. If you want to shoot long range and penetrate helmets and other metal, then you bump up to M855. If you want to engage humans at extended distances with an AR, then the expanding bullets will work better. How likely are such distances for your typical home user of an AR? IMO, it is better to just train and practice with M193 since your engagements should be "up close."

In my case, I view the AR's and AK's as 300m or less kinds of rifles. (More like 200m or less in my hands with an AK and standard sights!) If I want to engage humans at distances over that, I'll move to a different platform. My Tikka Tactical is a .223 but it loves the Sierra 77 grain OTM bullet. Or the Savage F Class rifle in 6.5/284.

Gregg

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

It isn't the caliber or cartridge, it's the bullet design and shot placement that matter the most. That said, 7.62x39 has twice the mass and significantly more energy than the 5.56x45 has to work with and therefore any terminal effect the 5.56 can achieve the 7.62x39 can do it that much better. You can get a little more accuracy out of rifles chambering the lighter calibers but my 7.62x39 AK is all head hits at 100 yards, rapid fire over the stock iron sights with Wolf ammo.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

Buy yourself an SVT-40, and use the 7.62x54R round. Or even a Mosin. One shot, one kill for most applications. Nothing will stop two steel-core 7.62x54R rounds, even ceramic.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

What about dragonskin?

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

Two well-placed shots of Silver Tip 7.62x54R will blow right through any ceramic. The first will shatter it, the second will cut right through the pieces. Dragonskin makes the issue substantially more difficult, since the ceramic plates are fairly small (two inch diameter) targets.

But then, wearing full ceramic armor has its own serious liabilities. Like mobility impairment.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

I should also add that tests of ballistic armor almost never account for multiple hits on the same general area (most tests utilize "multiple hits" but over the entire armor system, not the same ceramic component). Of course, you need to be a good shot and have fate on your side in the heat of battle. Unless you just want to "aim high" and take a head shot instead.

Not to unfairly single out Gary Roberts, but so many cite him as an "expert" because he's a "doctor." Well, actually, he's a dentist. His research is worth one's attention, but it's not infallible. His conclusions are not omniscient.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

Not necessarily true with level IV multi hit plates.
The testing methods were not even ideal as the plate was not properly secured to simulate it being worn. True that two shots literally placed one on top of the other would probably penetrate but what are the odds of that happening? This test while not scientific was still very impressive. BTW, 30-06AP is the equivalent if not superior to standard 7.62x54 steel core.


As many here have already mentioned, shot placement is key. That being said the caliber and type of bullet are also critical. Let me start by saying that I am a 7.62x51 user/believer but if I have to use a 5.56/.223 round there are some important things to consider.

First off, the M193 bullet was designed to be fired at around 3,000fps and by all accounts it does quite a number on soft tissue. The problem however is that the 55grn bullet lacks barrier penetration and is easily effected by cross winds at long distances. Also, as the velocity drops (longer ranges) the bullet does not tend to yaw/fragment and cause the soft tissue damage that it does at closer ranges (generally within 200m).

The 62gr M855 steel core round was designed for better barrier/body armor penetration and was originally intended to penetrate a Soviet style helmet out to a range of 600m. The problem with the M855/SS109 round is that it is more stable than the M193 bullet and does not generally cause the soft tissue damage that the later bullet is known for. This has the effect on unarmored (skinny 3rd world) combatants of using an ice pick (clean holes through and through) unless bone or vitals are hit.

The 77 gr Mk 262 Mod 0 has better terminal performance due to its weight at longer ranges than either of the two previously mentioned rounds. Like the M193 however it also lacks good barrier penetration capabilities.

In a nut shell, if you are within 200-300m and are facing unarmored threats, the M193 has great capabilities. Ironically, the M193 round also has better anti armor capabilities than the M855 round inside of 100m due to its increased velocity.

If you are facing armored threats past 100m or barriers the M855 round has the advantage.

If you are facing longer range threats out to 600-700m, the Mk 262 round has the weight to buck winds and still deliver more energy on target.

Or just use a 7.62x51 and not worry about any of the above. Bx3

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

This man knows what he's talking about. Read... and learn.

P.S. Shot placement is KING... KKKKKKIIIINNNNG!!!!. Don't let anyone tell you different, regardless of the caliber they're pimping.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

30mm hit anywhere should do the trick.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

Generally speaking the more firmly the armor is held in place the more the protection it offers will drop. For example a kevlar vest that is rigidly affixed to a board will fail to stop rounds it would normally be rated for.

I really hope everybody realizes they need to pull the trigger more than once. "One shot, one kill" is B.S. even for snipers but it has no place at all in the world of gunfighting. Why aim at the plate at all though if you know you are up against an armored zombie? The pelvic girdle is rarely armored and even when it is that's usually soft armor easily defeated by a rifle. Otherwise there's the head and butt. The upper chest/neck area is really hard to put meaningful armor on too.

The .30-06 AP is superior. The Russians make 7.62x54 rounds that will rip through level IV armor but you'll never get your hands on any. Steel core is not the same as AP. They say the stuff that occasionally gets one of our guys is some kind of API. If the "I" component is making the bullet lighter I could believe that.

I'd only add that M855 still sucks against concrete and steel, well that and the kind of armor M855 has an advantage in defeating just isn't used much anymore and that advantage was only at long ranges.

I'm guessing you already know this but for the sake of everybody else the 7.62x51 is better at long ranges against soft targets than the 5.56, not against armor or even steel helmets at long ranges.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

True statement which is why I mentioned that the test was not standardized.


Plus 1000 on the pelvic girdle. This is also something to keep in mind for self defense with pistol caliber firearms as many home invasions are being committed by perps wearing soft body armor.



.30-06 and 7.62x54 whether standard ball or AP are both about the same in capability. There may be exotic 7.62x54 SLAP rounds that shoot through level IV armor just like there is 7.62x51 SLAP ammo that will do the same. Like you mentioned, the availability and cost is prohibitive which means that the likelihood of encountering it are slim to none. As for the bullets that are defeating our military plates, it could be regular AP or API. Our issued plates are mostly level III which is not rated for AP/API in the heavier 7.62x54 calibers.



True that it still sucks but it is better than the other two alternatives in it's given parameters.



Also true unless of course you happen to have black tipped 7.62x51 bullets.:biggrin: Bx3

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

That's a problem that will only get worse. Sooner or later more state govs and then the feds will regulate armor like they do firearms, when that happens it will be advantage badguys. The cat's already out of the bag on soft armor and a lot of people realize how easy it is to stop handgun rounds even with improvised armor.

My point was .30-06 AP beats 7.62x54 steel core since the steel core isn't a hardened penetrator. The two rounds are close in terms of raw power though, the 7.62x54 is somewhere between the 7.62x51 and the .30-06 in general terms and specific loads may favor one or the other. Either way the x54 is a great value in its class.

They've made all kinds of crazy loads for this caliber. I guess it's been standard issue for them since the blackpowder cartridge days so they've had plenty of time to play with it. They've even got explosive bullets for this caliber and yes, a few even made it into the US.

ESAPI is supposed to be rated against AP. Exactly how well they work and exactly how widely issued they are I couldn't tell you but I know a few guys who got them. The problem is one you're probably familiar with, ceramic plates do crack with rough handling and replacement ESAPI's are sometimes hard to come by.

Yes, there were quite a few black tips floating around a couple years ago. I sure wouldn't want to end up on the wrong side of a Garand full of those things. As far as the average survivalist is concerned I think most of the value there is in disabling vehicles. 7.62x51 will punch through a lot of cover even with ball and we're kind of at the point that body armor will either stop AP or let any rifle round right on through. I do believe it's good for people to have AP because we're Americans, it's our right and it may come in handy when the giant lizards land, but in terms of practicality I think it makes more sense to defeat armor with shot placement. That's why I never worried about steel core for 7.62x39. That's kind of why I slowly switched over from 7.62x51 to 7.62x39 too. I know, it still seems backwards to me sometimes.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/i...leshooters.jpg

55gr ammo is considered a varmint round. Ground hogs, coyotes, poodles (under 50lbs that is). :biggrin:

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

Boy oh boy, I have so much to learn about ammo...

Thanks for the interesting posts, fellas.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

I always look at it as a fine line between power and weight. I would always prefer to shoot the most powerful round available, if I didn't have to carry it all. Depending on the scenario, most individuals won't have any supply lines behind them. You will need to carry all that you will need. Sometimes, I actually wonder if .22 lr or .22 Mag makes sense in a survival carry all you need situation.

If I will be close to home, I have much heavier hitting rounds available. If I am not - then I will be packing as much ammo as I can carry, which will be .223. Under certain extreme scenarios, even if you don't have an AR platform shooting .223, if you live long enough - you eventually will have to (that is probably all you will be able to find, scrounge). That being the case I have made the decision to shoot and practice with what will most likely be available in such an event.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

Holy sweet jesus, giant lizards landing? Can you be more specific?

Ok Ok, just tell me this. Do you think that a 12 gauge slug stop one of these giant lizards (the slug has more stopping power than the AP rounds)? My wife will not allow me to purchase an M-14, AR-15, or an AK, so my Benelli M-2 is my shotgun as well as my rifle (and lizard killer) I have the slug barrel, and over 500 sabot slugs. as well as 500 slugs for the smooth bore barrel.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

I have recently come to the exact same conclusions. I am a huge fan of the M14, but when I have it packed on my BOB with 2 BPs, the weapons and ammo weigh as much as everything else (short term food, clothing, hygeine and first aid.) I got an AR just for fun a while back and was amazed at how light it is. 2-20rd M14 mags weigh as much as 3-30rd AR mags. I can carry the same amount of ammo and rifle for 21# less.

I still plan one staying home with the M14 whenever I can, but if I absolutely, positively have to leave, I'm taking the AR. I think the added mobility would more than make up for the reduced power.

Re: Anyone here see 60 Minutes last night?
 

Well, I have no idea what a 12ga slug will do to a steel or ceramic insert, but I've heard that while a slug will not penetrate a LIII/LIV vest, it won't stop it, either. Imagine having a vest pushed through your chest by a big lead slug...

If you can't have a M14, AR, AK, etc., what about a Mini-14/30 or Saiga? Check out the Saiga sporter rifles, you might be able to slip it by her. Even the ATF considers it a "sporting rifle". They are available in 5.56, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, and 7.62x51.

http://shop.peachstateguns.com/image...IGA%20.223.jpg